OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

Theoretically speaking, what if Mew was allowed in OU, but it was:
A) Not allowed to have both Swords Dance and Soft Boiled on the same set
B) Not allowed to have SD
C) Not allowed to have SB
D) Allowed to have both SD and SB
or E) Not allowed to have either

Questions:
1. Which option do you think would be healthiest for the OU metagame?
2. Using the option you chose in question one, how would the metagame change with this addition, in your opinion?
3. Would the metagame become better or worse, in your opinion?
4. Do you think there is a better way to unban Mew, or should it not be unbanned in any way?
5. How would Mew being unbanned in the way you chose be beneficial? How would it be detrimental?

Looking for opinions! All are welcome!
 
Last edited:
Theoretically speaking, what if Mew was allowed in OU, but it was:
A) Not allowed to have both Swords Dance and Soft Boiled on the same set
B) Not allowed to have SD
C) Not allowed to have SB
D) Allowed to have both SD and SB
or E) Not allowed to have either

Questions:
1. Which option do you think would be healthiest for the OU metagame?
2. Using the option you chose in question one, how would the metagame change with this addition, in your opinion?
3. Would the metagame become better or worse, in your opinion?
4. Do you think there is a better way to unban Mew, or should it not be unbanned in any way?
5. How would Mew being unbanned in the way you chose be beneficial? How would it be detrimental?

Looking for opinions! All are welcome!
I don't play a lot of RBY so maybe my take here doesn't represent those of RBY regular players

What would be the purpose of unbanning Mew and making a complex ban to have it function? RBY OU is very very well balanced and has been so since decades, a 100 all around BST psychic type with a movepool so huge that a complex ban would be necessary to have it work would just kinda fuck that all up?

No offense but such a discourse seems like a waste of time. If you wanna use gen 1 Mew, Ubers has their door open. mew going down to OU would throw things off any way and negatively influence the RBY OU ruleset
 
Theoretically speaking, what if Mew was allowed in OU, but it was:
A) Not allowed to have both Swords Dance and Soft Boiled on the same set
B) Not allowed to have SD
C) Not allowed to have SB
D) Allowed to have both SD and SB
or E) Not allowed to have either

Questions:
1. Which option do you think would be healthiest for the OU metagame?
2. Using the option you chose in question one, how would the metagame change with this addition, in your opinion?
3. Would the metagame become better or worse, in your opinion?
4. Do you think there is a better way to unban Mew, or should it not be unbanned in any way?
5. How would Mew being unbanned in the way you chose be beneficial? How would it be detrimental?

Looking for opinions! All are welcome!
I mean it would be on every team. Stats, movepool, typing too good to ignore. Even if those moves were banned it has insane bulk and power. Explosion has to be mandatory, blizzard probably also on every set. Then pick what you want between psychic body slam thunderbolt eq twave hyper beam or maybe even submission for chansey (or even reflect). has some similarities to starmie but insane bulk, and great attack highlighted by access to boom. i think it would be the sole best mon in the tier even with movepool restrictions, nothing really checks it effectively and it's unreasonably fat. the healthiest option for the metagame would be to keep it banned.
 

Enigami

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
Moderator
  • Posts should have a relation to RBY OU and not deviate from the standard ruleset.
This thread is for discussion of the RBY OU metagame as it currently exists, this is not the place for theorizing about complex bans or "what ifs" particularly with banned Pokemon. No more discussion about Mew here please.
 

Enigami

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
Moderator
I feel like I should have a really strong opinion on the PR thread from Sabelette but I really don't. I don't have any desire to change RBY in its current state but I'm not opposed to Tradebacks and I think that if we were to start RBY from scratch there wouldn't be a legitimate argument for not including tradebacks. The whole premise of simulators and competitive pokemon is that we have access to every tool available without the use of glitches (theoretically), so it only makes sense that tradebacks should be legal. There were a lot of really bad arguments proposed (imo), but that single argument is enough that I think rby should technically be tradebacks. It's just even though that's how it ought to be, I don't really have any substantial desire to change as I also like the current RBY. So in effect, I'm very apathetic.

The real tragedy is that we effectively only get to pick one version of RBY to be played over all others. Really RBY/tradebacks/Stadium/Stadium+tradebacks are all equally deserving of play and offer their own distinct experiences. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in playing a format where it's only played sporadically and it's hard to build on your skills and knowledge, so I only really bother with RBY. I think this would be a fantastic point of differentiation for any non-Smogon communities that focus on RBY- RBY2K20 was promising but has clearly failed, Pokemon Perfect could consider trying this.
 
View attachment 515713View attachment 515713
This was just a really cool idea that I had the other day. I don’t even think a lot of people know that Slowbro even has access to counter but its been pretty successful on ladder. Nobody really thinks twice about throwing out their body slams and hyper beams at this guy in fear of the dreaded slowbro sweep but this set really takes advantage of that and it can get a pretty sick counter off on Tauros under the right circumstance.
 
View attachment 515713View attachment 515713
This was just a really cool idea that I had the other day. I don’t even think a lot of people know that Slowbro even has access to counter but its been pretty successful on ladder. Nobody really thinks twice about throwing out their body slams and hyper beams at this guy in fear of the dreaded slowbro sweep but this set really takes advantage of that and it can get a pretty sick counter off on Tauros under the right circumstance.
I have been having decent success running counter chansey in OU. So many pokemon run body slam and hyper beam so counter might be an okay move to go with. Chansey can also heal the damage with soft-boiled sometimes. Counter chansey is at least a reasonable way to deal with tauros, but not too much else. I'm curious to see what other people think of this.

Also slowbro and chansey have the benefit of being slow so they attack second. I don't think a ton people know that slowbro has access to counter, but people know about chansey.
 
Counter chansey is at least a reasonable way to deal with tauros, but not too much else.
Once counter is revealed, Tauros will always EQ it since counter doesn't work on EQ, so keep this in mind, also counter chansey often drops twave for it so chansey loses it's biggest tool against tauros

slowbro and chansey have the benefit of being slow so they attack second.
Counter has negative priority so you always move second. This is why chansey can use counter vs snorlax
 
Once counter is revealed, Tauros will always EQ it since counter doesn't work on EQ, so keep this in mind, also counter chansey often drops twave for it so chansey loses it's biggest tool against tauros
There's some more nuance to this. Chansey can choose to not Counter (including switch) against Tauros BECAUSE of the expectation they'll EQ anyway, making Body Slam a reasonable play if there's a chance you can get more value out of it if the Counter Chansey player, though EQ is obviously safer especially if Chansey drops TWave.

I'd also specify that only Sing Chansey will really drop TWave for Counter since that's important. Generally seems with Jynx/Egg aren't going to be running TWaveless Chansey and instead will be TWave/IB OR STOSS/Soft + Counter. Sets like BoltBeam+Counter TWaveless are just rare.
 
There's some more nuance to this. Chansey can choose to not Counter (including switch) against Tauros BECAUSE of the expectation they'll EQ anyway, making Body Slam a reasonable play if there's a chance you can get more value out of it if the Counter Chansey player, though EQ is obviously safer especially if Chansey drops TWave.
I probably wouldn’t want to risk losing my tauros just so I can bslam the switch instead of EQing it, so I would recommend still EQing here unless you absolutely need to bslam. I don’t wanna sack my tauros just because of one wrong prediction.
 
Thunder Wave is almost a must use for Chansey imo. I don't see Counter Chansey dropping TWave, and 3KO Sing Chansey is a gimmick.
I feel like 3hko chans was kind of just a thing when Snorlaxes weren't always scouting it as much as they do now. TW/IB/Counter is fine tho since I never had too much issue with monoib aside from Jynx freezing more (never felt like it was too imperative to have TBolt for mie tbh)
 
I feel like 3hko chans was kind of just a thing when Snorlaxes weren't always scouting it as much as they do now. TW/IB/Counter is fine tho since I never had too much issue with monoib aside from Jynx freezing more (never felt like it was too imperative to have TBolt for mie tbh)
I'm not sure about how much Snorlax users were and/or are scouting or not, that depends on who you are playing. One sure thing is that ReflectHB Snorlax or other monoLax variants have nowhere to go and that's the reason that makes you want to use Counter Chansey in first place: stop reflectHB Snorlax from manhandling you without having to use things like Gengar, IceLax and Rhydon (obviously Counter gives you the chance to KO, which is way better than walling, while also being a threat in other scenarios).

Yeah, TW/IB/Counter is fine: most notably it hits Rhydon well and can get freezes (compared to Seismic Toss). On the other hand it has many obvious flaws you have to be prepared for, with Jynx being one. Para'd Starmie isn't the end of the world if you consider you're happy to have your opponent's Starmie paralyzed. MonoIce has a limited role later in the game anyway, however Sing Ice Chansey is good early in the game and Counter Chansey isn't: to make it short, this is why Sing Chansey is common and Counter is a (good) weapon you can use every now and then.
Still, TW/IB/Counter Chansey's game is complete and 3ko Chansey's game is not: if you can get a freeze it will spam ice (while also being at least partially protected from Snorlax), it will use TWave setting Snorlax up if you can't.
 

Kenpwnchi

formerly Pwndkthnx
So, I feel like Gengar and Rhydon are two really good defensive mons in the meta rn (when it comes to using them to dodge Explosion and Thunder Wave [respectively]). They both work good together, as well. Rhydon, pretty much, checks Alakazam with its physical attacks (the latter being an extremely frail physically defensive mons), and allows for Gengar to get away from TW. Gengar, on the other hand, can be brought in to buffer any special attacks aimed towards Rhydon (Grass and Water, in particular), then allow for follow up. What's a good way to counter this core?
 
I wouldn't characterise Rhydon as a Zam check, js. It takes a ton of damage from Psychic, so it can't really be brought in safely.

To answer your question though, Exeggutor has great matchups against both of them. Starmie is also solid, as it can theoretically hit both of them super effectively, while having a fast TWave that Don doesn't dare to block. Otherwise Psychic attackers rip this core to shreds and Don can easily be worn down by stray hits from stuff like Chansey. Also they're both weak to EQ lol, so opposing Ground types are a problem, as well as stuff like Taur that can threaten 2HKOs. Both pokemon have significant defensive flaws so there are a lot of options tbh
 
Gengar + Rhydon as a back core is extremely weak to Exeggutor. Your only switch-in is Chansey which eventually will get sick of taking Psychics and letting Snorlax in. Alakazam and Psychic Starmie also posits issues for similar reasons, nothing except Chansey wants to take a Psychic. I say back core because Sleep sac gar + Don + Egg/Mie is fine, but it stops being a core of Gar+Don is Gar is just taking sleep. This core also lacks a switchin to Rhydon itself, you pretty much have to play on point to not let it in or accept sacing someone to send in your bull.

It's a pretty flimsy core with issues, if you wanna make it work you probably have to drop Chansey or Snorlax for an Exeggutor. Exeggutor covers Alakazam and Starmies lacking Blizzard. Stun Spore should be the best option in order to spread paralysis, Mega Drain maybe if you drop Snorlax and your Chansey has TBolt (but still probably Stun). If you go with dropping Chansey you might have issues with Psy+Bliz Mie, but at high levels most back mies are Surf+TBolt.
 
What is Chanseys future as a member of the "Big 3" looking like? To me it looks like Chansey is becoming more in line with Starmie (viability wise) in peoples eyes, whether that be because of Chansey being seen as worse than it used to be seen as, Starmie being seen as better than it used to be seen as, or both. What are Chanseyless cores anyway? And how do they avoid losing to Starmie or Zapdos?
 
Why are we limiting OU move variety so much with arbitrary rules?

At minimum tradeback moves should be allowed in OU and no-tradebacks could replace it as the niche unofficial format for those who want to reminisce the 2,5 year window between 96-99 before tradeback moves were introduced. Some of the players weren't even born before that window, let alone play competitive pokemon at that time. We have had 24,5 years of time to adjust to Gamefreak giving pokemon a bit more move variety. If Showdown was an official game with official Nintendo tournaments, they would obviously not ban us from using these moves. Previous tests have shown that the metagame doesn't drastically change with these moves, and it certainly doesn't change for the worse.

Long time ago people thought that Hypno would be S tier and the metagame would revolve around beating the crazy boosting pokemon, when in reality the best pokemon are still Snorlax/Tauros/Chansey, and Slowbro has even been argued to remain the best Amnesia user by top players. The number of viable pokemon in OU is increased by a few, while no-one really drops out, increasing the variety of pokemon a bit. Snorlax becomes the best pokemon, but its playrate doesn't even increase since its literally 100% already, it just has more move variety.

I'd also like to see OHKO moves allowed given a real test. Frankly, many of the arguments I've seen for keeping them banned seem to revolve around not understanding how they work, fearing that they would be too powerful or being concerned about the RNG aspect, but we have stuff like Chansey/Snorlax freeze wars which are 50-50 coinflips and if anything, that's where OHKO moves could help a bit. OHKO moves might see a bit of fringe play for specifically breaking through the most passive Snorlax and Chansey sets. Rhydon trying to kill a reflect Chansey with Horn Drill is IMO not more BS than Rhydon trying to kill it with FP chains and 7.8% crits. Or keeping it unparalyzed and trying to freeze war it instead. What is more dumb is that pokemon like Rhydon have literally 4 moves worth using, when they could have a viable additional option.

But again, I really don't think OHKO moves would be used much and I assume that their impact would likely be minimal, just increasing variety slightly. I don't think they have been given a real test with good players to see where their usage would end up in practice. Even if it's higher than expected though, the biggest losers are undoubtedly Chansey and Snorlax.

Ideally I would personally also like to see Fly and Dig allowed. Fly might be a viable move for Aerodactyl for example, again increasing move variety in the game a tiny bit. I understand that allowing them is a bit more controversial though. I remember this being debated long ago, and the arguments in favor of banning them are certainly more solid than banning tradeback and OHKO moves. And as always, we decided to limit our options to make the game 0.01% worse when we could make it 0.01% better.

I'd really want the mentality to change from limiting our options as much as possible to increasing them as much as we can.
 

johnnyg2

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Why are we limiting OU move variety so much with arbitrary rules?

At minimum tradeback moves should be allowed in OU and no-tradebacks could replace it as the niche unofficial format for those who want to reminisce the 2,5 year window between 96-99 before tradeback moves were introduced. Some of the players weren't even born before that window, let alone play competitive pokemon at that time. We have had 24,5 years of time to adjust to Gamefreak giving pokemon a bit more move variety. If Showdown was an official game with official Nintendo tournaments, they would obviously not ban us from using these moves. Previous tests have shown that the metagame doesn't drastically change with these moves, and it certainly doesn't change for the worse.

Long time ago people thought that Hypno would be S tier and the metagame would revolve around beating the crazy boosting pokemon, when in reality the best pokemon are still Snorlax/Tauros/Chansey, and Slowbro has even been argued to remain the best Amnesia user by top players. The number of viable pokemon in OU is increased by a few, while no-one really drops out, increasing the variety of pokemon a bit. Snorlax becomes the best pokemon, but its playrate doesn't even increase since its literally 100% already, it just has more move variety.

I'd also like to see OHKO moves allowed given a real test. Frankly, many of the arguments I've seen for keeping them banned seem to revolve around not understanding how they work, fearing that they would be too powerful or being concerned about the RNG aspect, but we have stuff like Chansey/Snorlax freeze wars which are 50-50 coinflips and if anything, that's where OHKO moves could help a bit. OHKO moves might see a bit of fringe play for specifically breaking through the most passive Snorlax and Chansey sets. Rhydon trying to kill a reflect Chansey with Horn Drill is IMO not more BS than Rhydon trying to kill it with FP chains and 7.8% crits. Or keeping it unparalyzed and trying to freeze war it instead. What is more dumb is that pokemon like Rhydon have literally 4 moves worth using, when they could have a viable additional option.

But again, I really don't think OHKO moves would be used much and I assume that their impact would likely be minimal, just increasing variety slightly. I don't think they have been given a real test with good players to see where their usage would end up in practice. Even if it's higher than expected though, the biggest losers are undoubtedly Chansey and Snorlax.

Ideally I would personally also like to see Fly and Dig allowed. Fly might be a viable move for Aerodactyl for example, again increasing move variety in the game a tiny bit. I understand that allowing them is a bit more controversial though. I remember this being debated long ago, and the arguments in favor of banning them are certainly more solid than banning tradeback and OHKO moves. And as always, we decided to limit our options to make the game 0.01% worse when we could make it 0.01% better.

I'd really want the mentality to change from limiting our options as much as possible to increasing them as much as we can.
I feel like you’re sorely mistaken if you feel ohko moves wouldn’t be used much. Rby moves at a relatively slow pace and giving something like tauros the ability to ohko cloyster or reflect lax is an amazing quality. It’s not just the obvious ones too: para support can make anything a usable ohko spammer. Lesser used mons like lapras and dnite suddenly can become good wallbreakers by flipping a coin. It’s way way worse than freeze spamming imo.

A couple of other things: rhydon does have other moves (leer/rest) that it wants to run. I’ve played rby for a long ass time and while yeah I can admit tradebacks prob would have implemented today, I haven’t seen any arguments in my 15 years of playing that hypno would be problematic in tradebacks.

rby is a great metagame, and you’re going to run up against a ton of resistance to change that. Just looking at invitational iv and different teams/lines of play have shown that the tier is very much not stale. Hope to see more great play over the years!
 

Sabelette

from the river to the sea
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I was one of the biggest advocates for testing tradebacks but saying they barely affect the meta is flatly not true. Lovely Kiss Snorlax is a huge change that makes it much easier to spread paralysis early because psychics and chansey can't sleep block it like they can do to gar/jynx/egg/chans. Hypnosis Persian is another physical sleeper and it's faster than Gengar. Elemental punches and Hypno aren't as big, true, but Gengar no longer fears Egg or Rhydon and Zam can totally destroy one of Mie or Egg. I still support a test because I think all things deserve a test before being banned, and TBs never got that, but they do affect a lot, don't minimize it.

As far as OHKO moves, no, this is not at all comparable to freeze. Freeze moves have valid utility outside of fishing for luck, and as much as they're RNG, crits are part of the game. This is not the same as a 30% luck move that makes no progress otherwise. By the way, OHKO moves have about the same chance for 2 consecutive KOes as Freeze has to get a single KO. Would you really like to lose 2 Pokemon to an unstoppable strategy 9% of the time? Let's not pretend "just switch to something fast" is counterplay. Freeze has an actual opportunity cost - you have to not spread paralysis if you want to freeze fish, and Pokemon like Cloyster come in free versus freeze fishing.
 
At minimum tradeback moves should be allowed in OU and no-tradebacks could replace it as the niche unofficial format for those who want to reminisce the 2,5 year window between 96-99 before tradeback moves were introduced. Some of the players weren't even born before that window, let alone play competitive pokemon at that time. We have had 24,5 years of time to adjust to Gamefreak giving pokemon a bit more move variety. If Showdown was an official game with official Nintendo tournaments, they would obviously not ban us from using these moves. Previous tests have shown that the metagame doesn't drastically change with these moves, and it certainly doesn't change for the worse.
Does any really want Tradebacks legalised though? Its switching to an entirely different metagame that is incredibly underdeveloped compared to standard OU which has seen steady development for over 20 years and that tbh, is much worse than standard OU. The fair suspect bell has been rang alot, but thats not enough to actually legalise them.
The comment about the metagame not changing is just straight up false, where did you even get that idea from lol
I'd also like to see OHKO moves given a real test
Please no OU would literally just become OHKO move spam with 0 counterplay whatsoever
 

Karxrida

The Unknown
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Ideally I would personally also like to see Fly and Dig allowed. Fly might be a viable move for Aerodactyl for example, again increasing move variety in the game a tiny bit. I understand that allowing them is a bit more controversial though. I remember this being debated long ago, and the arguments in favor of banning them are certainly more solid than banning tradeback and OHKO moves. And as always, we decided to limit our options to make the game 0.01% worse when we could make it 0.01% better.
I don't play RBY but lurk this thread and wanted to comment on this.

Fly/Dig glitch makes things literally unkillable, and the Paralysis needed to trigger it isn't exactly uncommon. I shouldn't have to explain why something like an invincible Dragonite or Moltres could be a major problem. Making Aero marginally less worthless isn't a good trade.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top